Outchurched Podcast 2.004 - “Is the ‘Outchurched’ Thing Just Movement Away from Political Conservatism?”
by: Rev. DanIn this Midweek Service, Grasty poses the question: “Are we a movement of ‘anti-Evangelicals’? Are we a just a reaction against ‘Conservative Politics?’” We briefly discuss this, and I think it’s a good start towards spawning discussion of some important themes. If you have some insight or thoughts on this, please share by leaving a comment.
Mentioned (but not necessarily endorsed): Jimmy Carter’s book Our Endangered Values : America’s Moral Crisis.
Outchurched 2.004 - Is ‘Outchurchedness’ a Product of Disgust with Conservative Politics?
My Odeo Channel (odeo/2c945ccdc63d1b75)
“We leave church for all the baggage and the stupid stuff, but once we have departed we find it a lot easier to let go of political conservatism because we are stepping back and being honest with ourselves saying what ought we do, what are we supposed to do, how are we supposed to feel about starving children, and poverty…it is easier to drift towards liberalism and find that it actually squares better with the message of Christ…”
I think I would be put into the category of a conservative evangelical, although on this pod cast I agree with about 80 percent of what you are saying. Here is where I disagree. I think the implication in this statement is that political conservatism cannot be arrived at honestly when thinking about starving children and poverty, or that liberalism squares better with the message of Christ. I try to live out the message of Christ daily. I personally help take care of orphans and feed the hungry on a weekly basis and attend a conservative evangelical church that does also. I also am economically conservative. I have arrived at this position because I honestly think that this philosophy helps to alleviate poverty on the large scale. Right now I live in a country that is far to the left socially/economically than the US and there is rampant poverty. The “poor” in the US are far better off than the poor here. I know this subject cannot be simplified to the extent that I just did. I just wanted to say that it is possible to be conservative politically (in some things) and still care for the poor and the disenfranchised. It is a different philosophy but still arrived at honestly and has merits, just as liberalism does. Take me to task boys.
I also totally agree with you that the marriage of the evangelical church and the republican party is disgraceful and has done great harm to the body of Christ.
Heya James…. I’m glad to hear from you, and not just because I’ve got love for ya personally, but because you’re a good source of data regarding what things are like outside the U.S. and, more importantly, you’re actually doing something far more valuable than just bitching. ;)
I think, like any discussion of these or similar topics, that it’s terribly difficult to not “overgeneralize.” It’s difficult, in the span of 11 minutes, to delve deeply into topics that there are multitudes of books about, but I think it’s a good starting point for discussion.
> I know this subject cannot be simplified to the extent that I just did.
True, but it’s a good point nonetheless. This is part of the reason why I have some vitriol towards “Americhurch” and Americans (and myself!) as a whole. Instead of doing something to alleviate legitimate suffering and hunger, we’re being Imperial Expansionists in the name of “freedom.” The freedom being fought for is not for the people of Iraq, but the removal of obstacles for American corporations to exploit a new market.
~
While we joke about tithing to Outchurched (or to “Rev. Dan”) on the podcast, what James and his wife are doing is something that I feel is legitimately supportable. If you no longer attend church, but feel compelled (or want) to tithe (or just help), sending money towards supporting James’ ministry would be effective and worthwhile.
I honestly appreciate the fact that James has chosen to fight against human suffering in the way/manner that he has. He’s gone a very long way from being the endearing smartass I hung out with “back in the day.” ;)
Dan,
I was looking foreword to getting hammered by the infamous Rev. Dan with a capital L(iberal). Instead I got props. I guess you got it all out on Mike.
During the last few podcasts I imagined myself sipping on an Italian soda at Devincis listening to you and Charles. I love you bro, keep it up.
I think it’d be more likely that you’d get “hammered with” me than “hammered on.” ;)
I respect people who have differing opinions, but I have no respect for jackasses who have little more than shit to spew.
Grasty’s a freaking brain, but I have to disagree with the premise. While the degree to which Americhurch has sold itself out to Republican politics is one of its many failings, my issues with church aren’t driven by a personal leftward drift. And I’m not drifting leftward as a result of my rejection of church culture. The last thing I want is to hand the keys to the church over to the Democrats or any other political party.
What’s happening with me politically is that I’m looking at our landscape and seeing that we have fallen in sick love with our controversies; they have become precious to us. Witness the passion with which people attack and defend George Bush, beyond all limit of reason sometimes. Witness the explosion of political blogs in the last election. It’s become a national sport, and I just don’t want to play that game anymore.
I used to frequent Free Republic every day, if that gives you any indication of my political background. I just don’t want to dedicate that kind of energy to anything but my Jesus, my family, and my job these days. Let the geopolitical world spin for a while without me.
Grasty’s a brain? I thought he was just good looking… damn.
Wait, it’s comments like this that get me the “gayest straight guy most people know” label, huh?
I should be careful about loosely referring to myself in “liberal” terms. It may be my own effort to disassociate with what is now conservatism, marked by the bullshit coming out of GW, preached on the Fox News Network, which by the way, had the child psychologist Dr. James Dobson on last night to affirm that the war in Iraq is “justified” (his word not mine). I should be clear that I am becoming more “liberal” in some senses, which maybe I will discuss at some point, but not now to avoid chasing off into a tangent. But, at core, I actually tend toward libertarianism. I want the government to leave me alone, and that means that I cannot use the government to control everyone else’s lives either. I really think that the Americhurch is asking for a lot of problems some day by getting into a “Republican” mode because it only serves them while they have power. But, what happens to christians when the government has the kind of control that it has, but the Americhurch and churchianism loses its popularity? If they were the ones in political and economic disfavor, they’d be signing up at the ACLU in a heartbeat.
We need to step back and ask “how to we keep America free” as political people, and as people who hold speech and religion as important freedoms to protect. If Americhurch succeeds in making America “more christian” then what happens when Tom Cruise becomes president, and is able to use all of this interwoven church/state policy in ways that we never thought possible?
grasty.
of course i resonate with what you’re saying, but you know me - i’ve been walking the path away from all of it that you cut a few years back.
you and the rev dann need to keep up the good deeds because there are many who are walking away & for a variety of reasons.
i’d file this disucussion under ‘outchurched as it relates politically’ it might be interesting to engage further as our position relates socially, religiously, etc…
a great outchurched story:
i know of about 3 dozen outchurched refugees in west michigan who have taken it upon themselves to use their sunday mornings as time to minister to the homeless in grand rapids. evidently, all the non-profits and church-based programs are closed on sundays for “obvious reasons - they’re all in church.” so this outchurched buddy of mine took up the call and now feeds about 225 meals every sunday morning. it’s a pretty cool thing and maybe this is a micro-shot of what could happen in the kingdom of god if there was less americhurch. just THINK what it would take to get 225 homeless people fed through the local americhurch (a staff, a brochure, a video, a logo and a theme for starters i guess)
18 months down the outchurched path and it seems more and more ‘normal’ to us and as your podcast asserts-everything seems up for grabs because this ‘thing’ that we’ve trusted and oriented our entire life around is now gone.
keep it up charles….
dave
You’re dead on, Grasty. I’ve long said that God is a true libertarian–he has a lot to say to people about how to live, but at the end of the day he doesn’t compel anyone to do anything.
We built a church in China a few years back (in a province far from Beijing; local officials can actually be a lot more permissive than the central government), and the local communist party head was actually heard to say that the Christians in his sector were such good citizens that he blessed the project and said he wished that more of his citizens were Christian. Then I look at what kind of citizens Americhurch breeds, and it’s no wonder that we’re “persecuted.” We jump into the firefight of American politics and end up calling down fire on Jesus that isn’t his to take. The church ought to for the most part stay out of the fight and take a consistent message with regard to the world around it: that we as citizens should vote our conscience and be on our best behavior when participating in democracy, but that the real juice is in how we treat our neighbor. Not in how we demand our government treat our neighbor.
A great question. A natural question for those of us who have realized the harmfully narrow beliefs and practices of Church USA.
In the end it is not a mere movement away from “conservative politics,” but a call to return to the radical teachings of Jesus.